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Thursday, May 24, 2012

Asset sales - a game for fools

"The Green Party today released the detailed findings of a new report that shows the Government and the economy will be permanently worse off if asset sales go ahead."

Russel tripped-up and drove Bill English's rugged mug into the paddock with a question in the House earlier this week, around asset sales.


This report commissioned by the Greens shows how unsound National's asset plans are and how right those who oppose the sales, are. BERL chief economist Dr Ganesh Nana says,

"Even Bill English accepts that our high levels of indebtedness to overseas lenders is our number one economic vulnerability.

"His programme of asset sales would make that worse."

Dr Ganesh Nana's report concluded that, "It would be unwise from an economic perspective to embark on a policy that risked increasing external payment obligations."

Russel adds,


"The National Government has dug itself into a hole with poor economic management and poor choices; asset sales would only make it worse."

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

Or more precisely, following Greens economic mismanagement would make things miles worse. Instead of waiting to inflate us out of debt like National are, the Greens propose borrowing and spending in an effort to create so much debt there would be no way out.

I saw a very good descrioption of Nana's lies - rubbish in, propoganda out. For a brief disection of BERL's flaws have a look at: http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/berl-and-asset-sales.html

Paranormal

robertguyton said...

You've not asked me a single question there, paranormal :-0
What you have done is reveal your prejudice of the Green Party. They don't subscribe to National's 'austerity is the key' plan to improve the lot of New Zealanders, but instead believe judicious stimulation of the economy is the best path. Interestingly, National's 'plan' is being rejected left, right and centre across the globe as it fails to produce the promised results- look to Europe and see what's happening there. Why National clings to the failing model, only they can answer, but I have my thoughts about that and they aren't flattering to Key, English and crew.
As too your rubbishing of BERL and Nana - ho-hum. It's what I expect of you.

Armchair Critic said...

paranormal linked to Eric Crampton's blog to support his argument. I'd be questioning Dr Crampton's credibility, as well as paranormal's prejudices.

Anonymous said...

Lets call Austerity what it is RG. It is cutting your cloth according to your circumstances.

What is happening in Greece is people with an overinflated sense of entitlement want to receive more than the country can afford to give them. You conveniently avoid looking at the result of the reckless spend and hope policies your lot recommend. The more money that has been poured in, the worse it seems to get, with no real end in sight. Just look at Greece over the past few years, and please for once ignore the hype of the socialists who just want to spend more of other peoples money.

Yes my prejudice against the Greens should be pretty clear. As previously stated I was a Green voter until I took the time to read their policies and realised what a disaster they would be. Wed Wussel has no idea of how the economy works if he thinks government spending creates wealth.

Since 1973 New Zealand has been borrowing more than we earn. We're going to have to pay the piper sooner or later. Even a cursory look at the current account balance will tell you we're stuffed if we don't make some drastic changes: http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/economic_indicators/balance_of_payments/BalanceOfPayments_HOTPDec2011qtr.aspx

Wed Wussel is no different to the other spend & hope politicians who make expensive promises they know they will not be around to bear the consequences of.

By the way, I've pretty much given up asking you questions RG. You really aren't any different to other politicians.

Paranormal

robertguyton said...

Let's take this one step at a time, paranormal (I'd hate you to be going about claiming I don't address your questions and claims).

Anonymous Paranormal said...

Lets call Austerity what it is RG. It is cutting your cloth according to your circumstances.

Well no, paranormal. The austerity you're citing is in fact a Government cutting the cloth of it's people on their behalf. That's something I thought you would vehemently oppose! What about self determination? What about Governments minding their own business??

What is happening in Greece is people with an overinflated sense of entitlement want to receive more than the country can afford to give them.
Seems to be the case - the people demanded this and chose a Government that provided it for them
You conveniently avoid looking at the result of the reckless spend and hope policies your lot recommend.
You, paranormal, assign actions to me, based only on your presumption and prejudice. It's easy for me to spot. Your language changes and you talk of "your lot" or "the looney left" or whatever. Your argument fails there and then. The Greens do not recommend "reckless spend and hope policies" If you can find a single instance of wehere they've done that, paste it here as evidence. You are great at making sweeping but unsubstantiated claims, like that.
The more money that has been poured in, the worse it seems to get, with no real end in sight.
You will be able to find instances where that is the case, for sure. Equally, there are examples of where investment has resulted in success, where economies have been stimulated by capital investment. You are presuming, wrongly I think, that the Greens propose to 'pour in money to make things endlessly worse. You are wrong on that count.

More in my next comment, para. I went over the word limit.

robertguyton said...

Just look at Greece over the past few years, and please for once ignore the hype of the socialists who just want to spend more of other peoples money.
I have looked at Greece, where you say the people have " an overinflated sense of entitlement want to receive more than the country can afford to give them." I've always thought, and heard from people like you, criticism of the Greens for their frugal, simplistic, Luddite approach to material possessions and wealth and yet here you are making out that they're profligate! Could you please make up your mind which prejudice you are gound to hold to?

Yes my prejudice against the Greens should be pretty clear. As previously stated I was a Green voter until I took the time to read their policies and realised what a disaster they would be.
You believe you made a mistake initially with supporting the Greens. That shows me you are prone to making mistakes and I can presume, as you've demonstrated is a valid way of forming opinions, that you're making another one now in opposing the Greens.
Wed Wussel Why do you choose to be offensive? Genuine question.
has no idea of how the economy works if he thinks government spending creates wealth.
Now here's an interesting point, paranormal. Russel has won pluadits across the spectrum of political commentary for his increased demonstration of a good grasp of economic matters. Even those who also childishly use the title 'Wed Wussel' have seen and noted the phenomenon. You are too deply buried in your own prejudice, it seems, to see it.

Since 1973 New Zealand has been borrowing more than we earn. We're going to have to pay the piper sooner or later.
'Parently not, paranormal. You're not conflating Government debt with private and business debt, are you? Such an elementary mistake, if it is the case. Even a cursory look at the current account balance will tell you we're stuffed if we don't make some drastic changes: http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/economic_indicators/balance_of_payments/BalanceOfPayments_HOTPDec2011qtr.aspx

Wed Wussel is no different to the other spend & hope politicians who make expensive promises they know they will not be around to bear the consequences of.
I don't agree at all. Russel, and the Greens in his team, are cut from different cloth, as we/they are constantly told by loquatious folk such as yourself, and don't fit your mould.

By the way, I've pretty much given up asking you questions RG. You really aren't any different to other politicians.
Ah, paranormal, how very wrong you are. Where your questions aren't packed with slights and barely-veiled insults, I enjoy responding. Where they are, I can't be arsed :-)

Paranormal

Anonymous said...

You are a masterful wordsmith RG. A politician with promise. You could also say the people are so used to being bribed with their own and others money they don’t need to wean themselves from government interference.

So your abhorrence of Austerity is about self determination? When the crowd demand bread and games you will give them more? So you are saying what the government bribes it’s people with is actually a right of the people and for the benefit taps to be turned off because it’s not sustainable is actually against democracy? Again god help us if that thinking ever gets the levers of power.

BTW you have no understanding of my philosophy. You’ve missed it by a mile with your ‘What about self determination? What about Governments minding their own business??’

The Greens do promote reckless spend and hope policies. Turn on the news any night and you’ve got one of your lot demanding more for this group or another. You want a single instance – what about last night I think it was with your co-leader demanding this new thing called a ‘living wage’. No thought about what that actually is or who is going to pay for it or the consequences of whatever it might be. Should I go on or do you get the point?

In your second comment you are putting words in my mouth and saying what sort of person I am. Isn't that what you accuse others of? I reaqlise in this instance you are possibly taking the mick, but it's not the first time.

'Wed Wussel' is to make a point. The man is a communist - he comes form the hard left of the Greens. Don't you think it odd that with the failure of communism, the Green movement has been swamped with communists. But then again I suppose you feel one of the founders of Greenpeace is a traitor.

I think you need to read a little clearer what people are saying about Wussel. It is not that he has a good grasp of economics. Communism and socialism have both shown to be failed structures. He is winning plaudits for the way he is behaving as the leader of the opposition and the way he is polictically working. Hiding the nuttier side of the Greens to gain wider acceptance is not acceptance of nutbar economics.

So RG, do you suggest we have a healthy economy on both sides of the ledger then? My point is the country is a net borrower and has been since 1973, even with the best of economic times in a generation in the 2000's we were still net borrowers. The money will have to be paid back. If we continue we will be the next Greece.

And I call bullshit on your 'cut from a different cloth' line. Your dearly beloved Greens are offering more spending over & above what happens now. It's not affordable or sustainable at present, how in gods name is it going to get better if we spend even more than we can afford. Also the spending the Greens offer is in no way productive to help grow the economy. It panders to their voter base. Sounds pretty much like all the others to me.

Paranormal

robertguyton said...

The Greens, paranormal, are promoting spending differently. You interpret that as more.
Have you read the Greens alternate budget, I wonder?
Your claim: " You want a single instance – what about last night I think it was with your co-leader demanding this new thing called a ‘living wage’. No thought about what that actually is or who is going to pay for it or the consequences of whatever it might be. Should I go on or do you get the point?" is pretty dippy really. For instance, you are basing your judgement on how deep Metiria's understanding of the 'living wage' concept, on a clip on the telly? Is that where you gather your intelligence, para? If so, it explains a great deal.
BTtw - I don't have an abhorence of austerity, in fact I promote self-imposed austerity as a really useful contribution to sustainability across the board, but a Government imposing austerity measures on the people, where it takes a disproportionate amount from the poorest, is sick, especially where that cutting is done in a sneaky way. I have to say, this National Government does 'sneaky' very well.

DarkHorse said...

Actually greece are the victims of an economic war that has been waged by Germany for the past thirty years. The current circumstance will result in a federal Europe with Germany running things. We are victims of the same war too because we are in as much debt for the same reason - our ability to earn has been taken from us by our economic enemies in the market place subsidising their exports and taxing their imports.

And we kid ourselves that we aren't as corrupt as the Grek but you need to look no further than Banksy and the Investment bankers to see how we delude ourselves in that area. It is only dairy farming that is stopping us being insolvent along side the greeks. And for those greedy buggers that pester you from time to time RG - they are just lazy bastards seeking a subsidy on their capital returns by taxing our power bills. They are not capitalists they are parasites.

http://howdaft.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/subsidising-capital-markets-though.html

robertguyton said...

I'm presently watching "Zeitgiest", Darkhorse. Your views slot in there quite comfortably.

Shane Pleasance said...

First principles remind that the use of force is only justified in self defence. Taxation is theft, and is the use of force. Just because the government does it does not make it ok. If we have very few basic human rights - and really there is only the right to life, and lawfully acquired property - any other assumed 'rights', by definition, trample on the right to life and lawfully acquired property. To assume some indistinct concept of shared property - like our 'assets' is disingenuous and based on emotive bumf. If you want it, build it or buy it or barter for it.

To argue that the green way, or the red way or the blue way is the right way is only to allow the bullrush of democracy to run roughshod over those individual rights.

The question is not what and to whom and for what, but rather whether it should happen at all.

The cognitive dissonance that comes from requesting the bare minimum of funds to create a government WHOSE ONLY ROLE IS TO UPHOLD THE BASIC RIGHTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL - to life and to the maintenance of property rights and contract; ie, defence, law and order and justice, is a great deal better than the swing from totalitarianism to crony capitalism - and inevitable economic and moral bankruptcy.

robertguyton said...

Who then, Shane, owns Solid Energy?

Shane Pleasance said...

http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/329045/shareholdings

Shane Pleasance said...

So it is certainly not me.

robertguyton said...

Ryall and English own Solid Energy?
You're kidding, right?

Shane Pleasance said...

...and it sure aint you.

robertguyton said...

Seems not. Who invested money into it, up to this point, I wonder?
Bill?
Tony?
Anyone else?

Shane Pleasance said...

Again, don't you just love that shared ownership? I look forward to the opportunity to 'invest' in them again.

Even if I am not entirely sure I am doing it.

All in the name of the social contract and the joys of mutual ownership.

But its surely ok to abuse the rights of the individual as long as its something the majority wants, eh Robert?

robertguyton said...

Those dreadful taxmen, levering a dollar from your crabbed hand, Shane. I'm with you on that, but for the moment, when our promised assets. paid for with our money, are being levered again, why not stake your claim to the shared asset? Do you cheer their sale? Don't you ant your investment back? Don't you want to at least be asked?

Shane Pleasance said...

I want it gone completely from the illusion of shared ownership.
Restore full property rights. Allow us to choose from whom we purchase everything.
You are being deluded and used by the monied to set groups against one another.

Lift your gaze. Its crony capitalism and socialism being pitted against each other.

No-one can win - except the monied and the socialist elites.

Restore the power in the individual for self determination, or forever spend your energy and resources pitching battles against your fellow man.

This is statism, and this is what statism is doing to us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9bIJC6aB0s

robertguyton said...

I believe I understand what you are wittering on about, Shane :-)
In the meantime, do you propose to support, opose or ignore the Government's proposed asset sales? I suspect you'll be in the 'ignore' camp, but I wonder, is that a responsible position to take? We aren't in your favoured scenario and won't ever be, I'm guessing, so does that mean that for the rest of your days, you'll be no more than a nay-sayer and a critic? How can you implement any of your political desires. Don't you wish to be influential and achieve a tangible gain?

DarkHorse said...

Twits like shane wont wake up until they have sold the roads, his water supply and best of all if they sell his sewer and he can't afford to flush the toilet - now that will be a crisis for him as he is so full of shit and he will not have anywhere to dispose of it other than on your Blog RG

then maybe he will see why society needs to do more collectively than just to guarantee his right to continue breathing.

robertguyton said...

Shane? Your name's being dragged through 'our' sewer.
What'cha gonna say?

Shane Pleasance said...

I have been nothing but polite and advocating that no force is used in a civil society, other than in self defence.

As president of a political party I hardly think I'm making no effort. Nor do I hide behind a nom-de-plume.
I do see, however, a fear of freedom that would have our ancestors despairing.

Without weasel words, Robert, are you for or against the use of force?

robertguyton said...

Against, Shane.
Unless we're talking rusted nuts.