Don, don't go head to head with Hone on public television. No one likes to see the elderly being mistreated. You're not too old, many claim, but you are old enough to know better. Hone's hui-hardened and can korero you under the table without raising a sweat (which I noticed you did). Still, it's all good for ordinary New Zealanders to see your ideologies crumble before Hone's measured and amusing deliveries. He has the show-man gene Don, and you come across as brittle and confused. Let someone else from the party you just bought front up to Hone - Calvert would do no better than you but she'd provide an even more Hilari-ous half-hour of entertainment - even Boscawen would do alright, provided there was no one in the studio audience armed with a plateful of lamingtons.
Go back to your calculator and corned beef now Don. We've had our fun.Over at Kiwiblog, Farrar (unsurprisingly) thought Brash did well.
Dishwater weak.
Keeping Stock's Inventory2, hilariously, thought Brash's attempts to debate were "an accomplished showing" - I reel with laughter and disbelief!
41 comments:
What is it with you and violence Rob? Personally, I reckon the Greens must be pooping themselves after Hone's reasonable and measured performance tonight. Ready to waka-jump?
Brash and Hone, what a nightmare.
I am ashamed my country accepts such individuals as 'valid' leaders of anything.
But you are right Invent, the ba-Mana party is the worst news for the Greens in ages. Sue Bradford seems to be revelling in the opportunity to get them back for not making her leader.
Though I guess it could force the Greens to focus on what is important, ie the environment, and pick up some stable support from slightly less radical sectors.
The left are in utter disarray, Labour are permanently gone in my opinion, there is nothing for them to rebuild.
I don't suppose your biased are you Greenfly?
Cocky - no.
Shunda - you're just peeved that Hone called you a mofo. Don't you see he stands for the oppressed and the downtrodden :-)
Inv2 - I wrote the title especially for you, tongue in cheek. brash got monstered though. He appeared to be forever scrambling to catch up with Hone's relaxed delivery. I suspect you saw that too, only you're honour bound to support the Tories.
The Greens have no fear at all of Mana. Wait and see. There will be symbiosis.
Ps - you didn't really think Brash's act was 'accomplished' did you? Please say it isn't so. Have years of blogging taught you nothing?
Robert.You are joking!
Actually I thought it was fairly even. I was pleased that I watched it.
The debate was valuable in that it highlighted the fact that both thought the Treaty of Waitangi was important, BUT, disagreed on what it says.
Honi's emphasizing of the rights of Maori as first arrivals as opposed to Don's emphasis of equality under the law.
Does the Treaty talk about both or is one of them reading something into the Treaty that isn't there?
Or are there two versions? (of the Treaty)
Yes, I aggree with IV2 and Shunda burunda, Hone could take a few votes off the Greens.
And I think Don might surprise with the support he gets.
The implications of this debate will reverberate for a while.
Farmer baby Boomer - yes, there are two versions of the Treaty, one in English and one in Maori. International law requires that where there are two treaties, the one written in the language of the indigenous people must prevail. Hone is correct. Brash is wrong. Brash doesn't know te reo Maori and will never understand the subtleties of the document until he learns. he will not learn. Too old.
Hone may take 'a few votes off the Greens' but the Greens have already gained significant support from ex-Maori Party voters, if what I read and what I'm told by local Maori is anything to go by. The Greens will not be worried, though Inv2 and Shunda wish it to be so. The debate about the Treaty is an intersting one, but Brash is ignorant of the Maori view. His performance tonight, aside from those details, shows that he is still too easily 'flapped' and gets hooked on detail and forgets that there is an audience.
Both Harawira and Brash have a polarising effect. I won't be voting for either of them. Overall I think Harawira did a better job of not frightening people away from his party.
Brash needs keep talking over his opponents and using tired cliches, to really bring out his true character.
I think the real threat that the right face is that while Harawira will attract votes from people who are, in general, less inclined to vote, Brash will not attract new votes, he'll merely change the distribution of votes amongst right-leaning voters. And he'll scare the swing voters. I'm stoked he's leading ACT.
Well Robert, if Hone would stop playing the blame game for 5 mins he would probably be a whole lot more useful in helping those he claims he wants to.
Tariana has the same concerns for her people yet doesn't seem to see it as all the fault of 'white mofo's' like Hone does, and neither her or Pita appear to use the bad behaviour of some Pakeha to justify the bad behaviour of Maori.
Armchair Critic - I've read your comments on various blogs and you impress me with your clear thinking.
I'm with you in being stoked over Brash's new role as leader of Act.
Shunda - Tariana and Pita have drawn their elitist cloaks tightly about themselves and seperated themselves from their people. Hone is going amongst them all raw. They'll respond to his direct approach, contrasting so starkly as it does with the Beemer-wrapped perambulations of his ex-Party mates.
I have also seen plenty of 'Don Brash' style corporate behaviour from a local Maori Incorporation and plenty of environmental destruction from their ultimate owners, Nagai Tahu.
Quite frankly, I think there will possibly be as much Maori support for Don Brash as there will be for Hone.
I live surrounded by the 'poor' that Hone talks about, and can see the reality of the situation and the rampant abuse of welfare and how it affects them and everyone around them. I see that sometimes people have no one to blame for their hunger but themselves. I have also seen the resistance and the abuse that often comes towards those that try to help them have a decent life.
I also see the cruel sentence they impose over their children and the heart breaking neglect they afflict them with.
I also see many green MPS live in a quiet corner of town away from the real world and all it entails.
tena koe robert
Shunda - Tariana and Pita have drawn their elitist cloaks tightly about themselves and seperated themselves from their people.
Really.
Well I guess the next election will prove how perceptive you are on that issue.
I think you may be surprised, Helen Clark made the mistake of assuming Maori were left wing property, and I think Hone is about to do the same.
Or is the issue here really that Hone can't feel comfortable in agreement with white politicians? Is it possible that race reconciliation has made huge progress in the past few years and some Maori don't actually want it. Is it possible that some are so engrossed in the fight that they are unable to enjoy a victory when it comes?
I think Pita and Tariana may be very far from elitist, there are always plenty of tall poppy cutters in good ole NZ.
Oh, and I don't know whether you noted it, Robert, but I thought the whole KB thread was overflowing with faint praise (of the "damned with" variety) for Brash. Though I suspect it was not given intentionally, as all genuine faint praise is.
Shunda - agreed - 'Maori' have shown they are not 'Left' by natural inclination, having a very strong conservative vein running througn their 'society' and tending to be Royalists (gross over generalisation there but that's the Way of the Blogs). Many see national as delivering tangible results in the past but this Maori Party have shown them selves to be too willing to sacrifice their base supporters to secure corporate gains - they've voted for a GST rise, measly minimum wage rise etc. in order to bolster the position for Maori corporate interests. Hone saw that and is gathering about him Maori who stood aghast and appalled as Turia and Sharples made those decisions. Sharple's stated willingness to work with Brash will torpedo them effectively and I'm betting he's deeply regretting having said he'd slip in between the sheets with Brash. Hone was great entertainmenmt and an exciting counterpoint to the Tory love-feat that is Act, National, Maori Party and wee Peter Dunce.
Armchair Critic - hollow praise I thought of it as!
Farrar's own effort was kept very brief so as not to reveal it's lack of depth.
The title is actually quite offensive Robert, especially given that yet another Maori infant died last week after being "given the bash" by a whanau member. Tongue in cheek doesn't always work; just sayin'
All so very true!Well put Rob.
"International law requires that where there are two treaties, the one written in the language of the indigenous people must prevail. Hone is correct. Brash is wrong. Brash doesn't know te reo Maori and will never understand the subtleties of the document until he learns. he will not learn. Too old."
another way of looking at it is that the treaty is wrong like a pair of pants that was made for us when we were five years old. After all the injustice (disadvantages Pakeha) and practicality (taiapure vs marine reserve etc) are what show it up when it is operationalized.
Just to clarify, I read somewhere that the Green MP's want Maori to own oil fields off the North Island?
Like anonymous said; it's not fair on us pakeha having our unfair advantage removed.
My views on why "one law for all" can support racial discrimination: http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/05/one-law-for-allbut-whose-law.html
What is our "unfair advantage"
Wow Greenfly ,over 40000 responses do you agree with what Brash answered when asked "do Maori have a special place?". 19% Yes 81% No!
Hone is a fan of Osama Binladen I see.
NICE!!!!
No he's not. It's fine that you don't like the man, but it's wrong to misrepresent him in ways that support your dislike of him
http://thestandard.org.nz/anatomy-of-a-lie/
Seems Hone disagrees with you wildcrafty, otherwise, why would he apologise?
The Standard's explanation is very very weak.
And lets be honest, many of the left in the privacy of their own homes do believe Osama Bin-murderin is a 'freedom fighter'.
Been away all day, sequestered in a windowless room (there were windows!) in Dunedin.
Shunda - many people in the privacy of their own homes believe Osama was a freedom fighter ... what's your issue with what people believe in the pprivacy of their own homes - are you a thought policeman?
Cocky - what did brash say in response to the question and was it you that repeat-answered the poll?
JH - you never give up trying to bash the Greens over their support for the Treaty do you!
Gecko - thanks and I hope all is peaceful in your part of the world.
Bioneer - well said!
Bsprout - thanks for your link, you are writing very well.
Wildcrafty - you have Shunda's modus operandi pinned perfectly.
Inv2 - obsessed with violence you are, especially that on children. How you slipped that reference in to this discussion will puzzle many readers but not me - I've seen you do it time after time! Cheap shot.
This is just like church:
You must trust the leader everybody, because even though he says things that don't make sense, he is the chosen one
Robert the whole "trust me on this" thing is wearing incredibly thin, especially when 'your guy' has his foot in his mouth so often.
You are requiring me to be a blind unthinking sheep, and I am done with that and where it leads.
Shunda - I'm not 'requiring' anything of you. Hone's comment about Bin Laden was in my opinion better left unexpressed. His carelessness in saying something as provocative as that was extremely poor. I'm certain he regrets having said it.
pure gold:
Shunda - you're just peeved that Hone called you a mofo.
I take it you're brown then, because he called every pakeha in NZ a MOFO.
But not every pakeha cared.
So what?
People also don't care to vote, doesn't make those that do irrational.
The fact that you and a few others are consistently prepared to give a 'pass' on racist and divisive statements tells us that you value a good ole 'sh!t stirrer' more than a decent leader with integrity.
No future in that.
Shundabarunda stringing someone up because of something said in an email is nothing to crow about. It seems you just can't forgive. You don't comment on the positive things Hone Harawira says and flare up like Vesuvius when he says something you deem offensive. I think you yearn to be offended.
@Mojo Mofo 1.14 Shunda not the only pale NZer to care...You okay to be labelled a black mofo by Brash/Key?
If one of them said it to the other in a private email I'd not care one jot! Brash firmly believes he's working in the best interests of his brown brothers but he hasn't a clue in reality. Key thinks Tariana's his kuia.
Shundabarunda stringing someone up because of something said in an email..
Oh come on!!
It is hardly an isolated incident, Hone has had his 'foot in mouth' more often than not.
And just like the defence followers of some charismatic Pentecostal preacher will offer, we are all told the reason we are offended is because "we don't understand"
I can respect that Hone has no desire to participate in the "bullsh!t of the system", but causing unnecessary offence simply reduces his credibility, as it should.
Shundabarunda
The email 'incident' most certainly was 'isolated'.
Other events that you consider 'foot in mouth' I expect are in fact statements made by Hone that you can't understand or lack the background to grasp the meaning of. I'm only guessing because you've not given any examples, just taken general swipes at the man.
You rock Shunda! Mojo Mofo..please educate us on the stuff "we can't understand or lack the background to grasp the meaning of".
Offence taken..yup..or am I just some white mofo who had it so much easier than others??
The stuff you want me to comment on Suz, hasn't been specified. That is, Shundabarunda hasn't told us what the 'foot in mouth' incidents are.
Til then...
Post a Comment