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Tuesday, January 15, 2013

Smashing democracy

Unbelievable! The Government's justification for refusing to allow democratic local body elections in Canterbury is that the voters might chose a balance between rural and urban councillors!
It's eye-wateringly, head-shakingly wrong to behave this way, but they have. NoRightTurn posts on the  statements by David Carter to the Law Society and has a similar reaction to mine. Not disbelief, because it's not outside of what I believe the way this National Government behaves, but there's a whiff of disgust in his post, it seems to me.

"But the Government says elections this year could potentially produce the same deadlock between rural and urban councillors that created the need for commissioners in the first place.

It says the commissioners' work on freshwater needs to be finished before elections are held.

Local Government Minister David Carter says he did not want the commissioners' unfinished work on water going to a council that may have the same rural-urban balance of power as its predecessor.

Mr Carter is interested in the Law Society's suggestion of a council made up of appointed and elected members, but says that would not happen until at least 2016."

23 comments:

paulinem said...

Robert this is parr of the course for this govt. It appears that democracy is a dirty word to them and their supporters.

I witnessed as a member of the public gallery of lack of democracy as tohow the SDHB operated. It was operated as a complete sham to democracy, where a political appointee as chair a Joe Butterfield ruled the roost with an iron will. He encouraged that there be no comments by ELECTED members gettting quite uppity when one refused to be silent and made comments on an issue.

He arranged voting to take in public excluded sessions by voiced consensus voting ie no individual voting!!

I have no doubt the decision to replace local caregivers for the elderly etc by an Australia operative was decided this way.

Sadly until we educate the so blinded national party supporters this removal of democracy is a dangerous and frightening move for our free society ..it will continue to get even worse .. re the polls still support a national govt !!

I see in today's paper Loose is making noise about one Southland council.!!

robertguyton said...

Those elected members, making a noise when instructed not to, Pauline - it's a terrible worry!
Ted has indeed relitigated the old cry for One Council to Rule them All.
I wonder if he will be at next week's 'decide the chairman's future' meeting? Will you?
Your own letter today was very powerful, pauline. You have taken the deniers to task. I think though, that your explanation for the action of gases on the atmosphere is not quite right and I've the feeling you'll get a response from the 'grumpies' around that point. Taking over from Carol Cowan, are you :-)

paulinem said...

We were told this that is what CO2 does (in my organic chemistry paper at SIT ) ..that yes CO2 does react this way when it gets into the atmosphere with a chemical reaction tampers with the ozone shield ... change the ozone formula and thus the hole develops especially ie over the Antarctic and Arctic.

Now this is the area where the global weather patterns form .. and then the trade winds ( weather )start the journey around the globe which takes 40years ( no those years are not an miss print ) and this is why the Scientist are ringing the alarm bells ..re no matter what change occurs now in the globe re pollution it takes too long to make a difference ..also we were told if too much CO2 gets up there it becomes a tipping point as the residue doesn't dissolve and this is why the scientist are warning it is close to being too late to do anything about CC.

Then the weather world is on a downward spiral..re newspaper explanation as you are only allowed 250 words I had to limit my explanation ...

But I assure you it would only take a call to someone like Dr Ross Ramsay Southlands local environment expert and my old tutor at SIT to back up what I wrote.. actually it was Anna Palliser whom took me for Organic chemistry...but I assure you Ross is a real expert on environment issues such as COs2 emissions

Re Looses letter did find it interesting re comment of absent councilors to meetings ..strongly suspect Cook is one of them ..bit difficult when you are on THREE local bodies to give the time and attention the role required but heck good income earner been on three councils!!

robertguyton said...

You approach to explaining the significance of CO2 sounded to me very much like the 'older' ozone-hole issue and that's where I felt your message was losing a little punch. You and your tutors way well be correct, science-wise, but I'm thinking as a layperson. No matter, great letter.
Yes, I believe you are correct, Mr Loose has his sights set on someone.
Odd time to make that play, I'd have thought, given that it's the chair who is under scrutiny just now. I think firing at the council, or at councils, is misplaced fire. Councils can be valuable tools, if they are functioning correctly. Thursday's meeting will indicate whether ours is operating with integrity.

Paranormal said...

OMG - thats where you get your information PaulineM. Interesting even RG politely points out you might be barking up the wrong tree with your ozone hypothesis.

Some questions you might like to research the answers for:
1) how is ozone created?
2) what is the concentration of CO2 at different altitudes?

When you get some answers to those have a look at how the CO2 cycle works. It may start you questioning what you have been fed.

paulinem said...

Paranormal what are your qualifications to debunk a learned tutors information ..!!!! I assure you to get employed they are qualified to pass on their knowledge

Ross Ramsay is a very learned and respectable DOCTOR on the Environment !! Where as YOU !!!hmmm

Ozone is made up O3 when mixed with HFC becomes destroyed ...

HFC becomes this after greenhouse gasses which including CO2 among other pollutants rise into the stratmosphere Then with a chemical reaction become Hydrogen flouride and carbon .....

The Ozone shield is natures way to shield and protect earth from the extreme heat of the sun...

Now because there is a large hole from the shield over the Antarctic and Artic the ice is melting

The ice is also natures way to regulate the global weather patterns ..when the ice get melted so goes our natural regulator!

http://www.estis.net/includes/file.asp?site=nou-nepal&file=A69ADF96-69A8-46A1-A28F-85C663CE2370&scale=100

paulinem said...

Paranormal Information on the Ozone shield ..if you want more info google it yourself

http://www.estis.net/sites/nou-nepal/default.asp?site=nou-nepal&page_id=3F6D4780-88F9-4E9D-9400-1374C13B467E..

Back to the topic Robert .. democracy I find the use of consensus voting very concerning

With type of voting it becomes easy for elected members to hide their voting. Thus in this way not honour the expectations of those that elect them to office. I mean how many who voted for the present SDHB elected councilors ..would have done so if they knew they would support the removal of local care givers like the PSA in favour of an Australian company ...

With concensus voting their is no way to know who supported and who didnt support this alarming change.

robertguyton said...

Good points, Pauline. Paranormal must feel as though he's received a thorough whipping!
I'm thinking about consensus - reaching one seems a good thing, but as a voting mechanism, I see your point.

Paranormal said...

I notice in your diatribe you have not answered the questions. I merely asked them to prompt your thinking. You might start some critical thinking when you get the answers.

You would then start to question the information you've been fed.

paulinem said...

Paranormal the problem is not with me but YOU ..as I said who are you to debunk learned people as been rubbish ..what are YOUR qualifications ..NONE I suspect to suggest deniers of CC are totally correct whereas everything else said is rubbish ..I have studied your questions I do know my reply is correct!!! ...

Where as you and your friends get all fired up by scientists whom you will find are well paid or supported by the fossil fuel industries to spread the denier to CC message for an obvious invested interest agenda..

Meanwhile REAL innocent people are suffering... BUT heck you don't care about them do you after all where you live etc its fine ..and that's whats only important YOUR well being ..

Paranormal this morning the news came through that Indonesia is having extreme flooding from an extreme monsoon weather thousands are homeless etc ... this year we hear of EXTREME heat in Australia where all previous records are broken ..and they said theAustraian fire season when it is expected to be hot and dry hasn't even arrived ie more heat to come yet .. In recent years EXTREME drought in northern Africa countries as result the UN says it is believed over 10 million have died from starvation related reasons etc ..similar last year in Russia Pakistan etc etc India loss a third of its staple food supply due to EXTREME heat of weather ..
US and hurricane Sandy etc ..they need to get use to this it will be an annual event

BUT no you and your denier friends continue with your smarmy put down replies to CC believers you are so convinced that the paid scientists of CC deniers are correct ..you are so much like chicken little in reverse .... when you insist that CC is all a myth a plot by the media etc etc .... meanwhile the fossil fuel industry people smile and laugh when you do ...for they know their grubby money is well spent on your flavour of scientist ..AND in the meantime REAL INNOCENT humans are suffering

I explained your questions and how CC and greenhouse gasses happens fully paranormal if you are so blinded you refuse to see this well !!!! its your loss not mine.

Paranormal said...

Such vitriol from some simple questions you clearly don't know the answer to, or if you do know, don’t want to answer. If you were able to answer them you would begin to understand your conclusion above is erroneous because of a false assumption at your starting point. I am not questioning the chemistry - purely your conclusion.

Ask yourself why warmeners like yourself cannot answer simple questions and then resort to political tactics to achieve your dubious goals. I have been a denier for years after doing some research and critical thinking. I don't believe that I am in the minority any more with more and more questions being asked around dubious science of the warmeners. For example: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/17/global-warming-takes-a-vacation/#ixzz2IH3LqpYG

Au contraire - you Paulinem, and evangelists like you are the real problem. Leading a charge against non-issues and diverting resources from solving real problems that face real people today.

robertguyton said...

Well done, Pauline, you've rattled para's cage beautifully.
Vitriol, para?
Hardly. Pauline's challenge is a wash of warm milk, compared to what you'd get from a less kindly soul, such as myself - I'd give you vitriol, if I thought you were a threat of any real kind. Pauline, you'll never dent para's Shield of Denial, it's made from Desperateranium and is impervious to Reason.

Paranormal said...

Good to see you sticking to the faith Robert - even with such evidence against it. One day the answers to the questions I've posed here may lead to the opening of a few minds. Who knows, maybe even yours....

robertguyton said...

I'm in there for the long haul, Paranormal, it's such a vital issue for us all that I won't give up on it just because of some emotional attacks from deniers like yourself.
I see Monckton coming to town (again). Hope he is a successful in attracting attention and someone to debate with as he was last time :-)

Shane Pleasance said...

"The Ozone shield is natures way to shield and protect earth from the extreme heat of the sun..."

Really?

robertguyton said...

Now now, Shane...

Paranormal said...

So - asking questions and looking for factual answers is an 'emotional attack'. It might help if you were to re-read the comments. But then again misrepresentation is the way of the left.

OTOH PaulineM seems to go rabid as soon as her absolute faith is questioned with a suggestion she seeks some additional information. Shane is on to it.

Shane Pleasance said...

Well honestly. I heard a beeping, and it weren't me gaydar.

Paranormal said...

So - asking questions and looking for factual answers is an 'emotional attack'. It might help if you were to re-read the comments. But then again misrepresentation is the way of the left.

OTOH PaulineM seems to go rabid as soon as her absolute faith is questioned with a suggestion she seeks some additional information. Shane is on to it.

robertguyton said...

Your mobility scooter's 'backing' warning?
At least Para's convinced that you're 'on to it' That's gotta mean something.
Mind you, he thinks Pauline is "rabid". That's hardly cricket.

Shane Pleasance said...

Robert, it is disingenuous to support, even as a high priest of enviro-religion, such dribble worship.

The environment is too important for that.

robertguyton said...

You are correct, Shane. No supporting dribble from me.
Knowing as I do, that AGW is a real and pressing threat, I must focus in order to be effective.

Shane Pleasance said...

Amen.