Eric Roy clearly feels honour-bound to defend, promote even, his party's asset sale plans.
William Stronach of Invercargill feels obliged to remind Mr Roy that those assets are not his to sell, that in fact they belong to us all and Mr Roy better remember that "he is elected to represent our best interest, is he not?"
"Why would anyone sell something that provides jobs and income for New Zealand people - that's all persons living and working here, regardless of their nationality - for two guns and a musket?", Mr Stronach asks. I imagine he meant, "blanket", but Mr Roy better take note - the natives are restless!
Tuesday, February 14, 2012
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17 comments:
Mr Stronach is also showing his economic illiteracy then. Even if the assets were sold 100% offshore, they won't be moving away from New Zealand. They will still require local employees and they will still generate tax revenues into the NZ coffers.
But I suppose that doesn't really matter to the left. Adherents of socialism don't recognise it's a failed experiment.
Paranormal
I think Mr Stronach is describing the reservations most ordinary New Zealanders are feeling toward a Government's plans to seel what we already own, receiving a poor return from that sale and losing control over how those assets are managed. Most concerning to him, as the rest of his letter describes, is the worry that investors off-shore will be able to pressure the companies into actions that disadvantage and even harm the communities that are most effected by them - private interests are not bound to consider the well being of communities the way an SOE is.
Inefficient management, indiscriminate price hiking, poor returns, poor 'future-proofing of supply, to mention some of the problems plaguing SOE's in the "power" sector surely is not a good way to look after the "well-being of the community" that you refer to, Rg.
As an investor I welcome the opportunity to take a part in making the power companies more accountable. As with the vast majority of investors we have no desire to 'control' the company - this as I understand the proposal from Government is to remain firmly with the Government of the day.
Paranormal and Fred where have you been living the neo liberalism experiments to privatise our assets beginning in Rogernomics time and later whole jumped into by Richardsons were a mitigating disaster .... all it did was hike up the prices where Mum and Dad Kiwis living decreased dramatically...
Oh yes we are aware your mongrel friends like Jones, Richwite Fay and Co continued to enjoy their luxuary life style in Rogernomics/Richardsons era
NZers lifestyle and debt level and overall happiness with life was far superior under the Keynesian economy pre Rogernomics and we owned ALL OUR ASSETS back then
WE were far more contented back then and we could afford to live and raise our families than have we ever been since your friends took control of our state assets .....
So give us a break with this utter BS about efficiency and smarter operations of State assets under privatisiation
IT DIDNT WORK IN THE PAST and it wont work in the future THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING as the saying goes !!
Paranormal and Fred are you actually Kiwis I suspect not. Your love of getting rid of our assets and labeling anyone opposed to assets sale as leftists tells me you are not a Kiwi.
Or maybe if you are you so in love with your own selfish personal economic gain you are prepared to forget the sacrifices of the past which mine and other ancestors gave to this countries; that you are prepared to sell this countries well being to the highest bidder ...theres a word for people with that later attitude... Traitors!
Whoaaaa, pauline! Harsh words indeed!
Fred, I'm taken aback by your comment.
You've painted the energy SOE's as ghastly and there's some truth in that but your solution; inviting private industry in to 'cure' that problem is, as pauline points out so graphically, misguided. I'm very concerned too, that you seem to have no awareness of the potential problems that can result from having foreign ownership, which won't necessarily be individual investors with benevolent thoughts toward us, so far as the leverage they will have is concerned. Even the starry-eyed Bill English is unable to brush off the obvious problem of too greater control ending up in foreign hands and the potential for those shareholders to leverage the activities of the companies. Very concerned, I am, about your apparent blindness there. You'll be aware I hope, and I hope you'll respond to this point, that SOE's are required to consider the wellbeing of associated communities, whereas private industry is not. Can you show me where there are protections such as those built into the proposed model, or are you simply going to have your fingers crossed that everyone will play nice?
The power company has just sent - literally - an email detailing its price rise effective from the next account.
No accountability under full SOE- no community thoughtfulness, just good old price-gouging. What protections are there built into the current model,Rg? Please outline.
I dont 'cross my fingers'' over serious business decisions. I base those on study of the facts and act accordingly.
Oh Pauline, you poor deluded soul! You are indeed a victim of the introverted thinking imposed upon you by those who profess to represent "the people' but in reality only are concerned with their own agenda to control the minds and lives of the unwitting, thereby dragging us all down their level.
Fred. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Air New Zealand privatized for the same reasons you cite, and wasn't it rescued by the Government because it was failing miserably? It's an example of the triumph of State management over private, surely?
Pauline is right poor old paranormal and fred onluy need to look to the tangata whenua to learn where selling your core assets takes you. They had plenty of "leaders" who took the blankets axes and muskets and sold out their people using the same logic that fred and Para spout.
Also these are not assets they are essential services - the "investors" are buying the right to tax the nation - they are not capitalists they are "rentiers" which as a class of "investors are nothing more than parasites - they drain resources from, and add nothing to the economy.
Having been in and around the energy and infrastructure sector for much of my life ECNZ was much more efficient, had a much better strategic grasp of the supply of electricity as an essential service to the economy than the SOE's and the SOE's do a much more efficient job than the privately owned infrastructures.
Paulinem as you seem to inhabit some sort of parallel universe I thought I should repost my comment from the other day. Maybe you could find time to read it in amongst your frothing at the bung.
Paulinem - what colour is the sky in your world? You really need to stop spreading propaganda and have a look at what really happened.
The country was broke in 1984. Fact. It was so bad, on opening the books once they got into power the Lange/Douglas government thought they would only be there for one term. Muldoon (and the other socialists before him) had seriously buggered the economy. Proof positive that your Keynsian paradise just didn't have any clothes.
If Douglas hadn't started sorting things out the IMF would have come in, as they did in England in the 1970's, and it wouldn't have been pretty. Douglas set the country up for the next 20 years of prosperity. Only to be ruined by 9 years of Liabour (and to a certain extent spud bolger/winston first before that). Have you ever wondered why we are in such a bad state after the best trading conditions in a generation? And spare me your occupy "it's the bankers fault" crap. The bankers didn't spend the money like drunken sailors on poor outcomes.
We've only had two very short periods of reform under Douglas and Richardson with decades of overspending to buy power by both the blue and red teams, that is again coming home to roost now.
It is clearly living beyond our means as a country that has caused our fiscal malaise with the government just taking too big a share of the productive economy and then squandering it on buying power. Welfare for families and student loans are just two examples amongst many.
....
As for being a New Zealander - piss off you xenophobic racist. I love my country - yes I am a born and bred new Zealander. It pains me that ignorant fools like you are trying to destroy what has been and could still be the best country in the world.
Paranormal
Gently, paranormal. I hardly think it's fair to say that Pauline seeks to destroy New Zealand - you've rather over-reacted, I feel. Re-publishing your earlier comment brings to mind the old adage, 'If you do what you've always done..etc. I think darkhorse has the response that best counters and reveals your claims. He's dispassionate too, which always gives one the advantage in a debate :-)
RG - Quite clearly Pauline hasn't seen it to carry on spouting her drivel. And what would you call driving the country into bankruptcy through her beloved Keynsian socialism?
As for Darkhorse - again the state is unable to meet and respond to our needs as well as the private sector.
The tangata whenua seem to be doing allright on the assets side of the scale. I'm not belittling the injustices done to them but we're sorting those out through the Waitangi Tribunal. There's a lot of history that has been conveniently forgotten. What Darkhorse is quite comfortably avoiding is the inequalities within Maoridom - then and now that is at the core of their problems - but that's another can of worms.
Darkhorse repeating a socialist mantra about "buying the right to tax the nation" is more idealogical claptrap. The alternative view is the potential purchasers - whatever nationality they might be (and I suggest Darkhorse wouldn't be so negative if it was Tanagta Whenua doing the buying), are investors in our society providing a service that we gladly pay for. All government is responsible for is setting the environment. It doesn't need to own or (as Darkhorse and Paulinem prefer) subsidise the provision of services.
Whilst you could consider electricity an "essential service", it wasn't that long ago we survived quite happily without it. It's obviously a Gereen thing to ignore the reality that the electricity providers are potentially in a dieing industry - similar to NZ Post with outmdated business models and technology - when distributed generation (you remember that Green policy) becomes a reality through cheaper generation options. It makes sense for the government to be getting out of it.
Lets have a look at government monopolies and just how well New Zealanders have been served.
Air New Zealand was a basket case before private sector involvement and competition created the incentive to actually provide what New Zealanders needed. The fact they had a poor board that made stupid decisions and were done over by the Aussies re Ansett meant the shareholders lost big time. Government intervention possibly wasn't required as the services would have been supplied to us anyway. Having said that if you consider Air NZ a success since intervention then you're arguaing in favour of Key's mixed ownership model.
The likes of Paulinem have forgotten just how dreadful services in fortress New Zealand were. Just look at Telecom amongst others. We now get what we need as consumers. Don't like them then - we have choices.
Paranormal
Paranormal YOU are seeing the past through a very narrow tunnel vision of the truth...I lived and had a family during the Keynesian times !! It wasn't as bad etc as you described!
YES we got into debt before the neo liberalism reforms of Douglas because Birch/ Muldoon wanted to assure election victory under FPP ( you only needed a narrow number of voters to be bought and you were the Govt )...its why since approx 1950- to 1991 we had govts with total power yet only approx 40-45% of the community voted for them!!
It was a grossly unfair UNDEMOCRATIC election system!! Birch/Muldoon saw the chance of getting votes with the Think Big schemes re borrowing big!!!
You look at the neo liberalism reforms with rosy glasses all Douglas did was transform the public debt on to private debt under his and Richardsons era we were in far more debt than Birch/ Muldoon era ever put us into debt that mate is a fact check the statistics note the private debt we raked up then !!!! Note the debt we are NOW and how the banks have become so unacceptably powerful all under neo-liberalism...far far higher than the days of Keynesian economy !! And those days the banks were NOT so powerful as they are today !!!
Re 1984 and the so called economic potential collapse ..that paranormal was caused by Jones, Fay Richwhite and CO playing greedy manipulative games with our exchange rate. They were playing on the fact our then PM Robert Muldoon was a very sick old man and the reality the rest of the National caucus were shit scared of him to get rid of him !! That was the reality back in 1984 and its why those bastards got away with their thievery of so much NZ over seas funds !!!!
There was a video done of the whole sham and yeap those greddies got a court order stopping its publication ...BUT some got out on the black market and yours truly saw the video of the whole truth of the shameful thieving saga!!
Telecom was sold again to provide money for the Lange/Douglas govt to BUY votes ie FPP we didnt have MMP until 1994. Telecom WAS working perfectly fine so get your facts right and stop your BS of reality under Keynesian economy !!
The poor old dogmatists! Relying on rant and abuse instead of logic as usual. The intellectual taliban strike again.
In Muldoon's day my dad could support our family on one income now people in the asme situation as him struggle to get by on two.
Muldoon may have made a dogs breakfast out of Think Big but name one prime minister since who left a more useful legacy - the rest have just cashed it all up and squandered the proceeds. Muldoon got caught not by think big but by the collapse of the oil price after he had all that stuff built because the americans went into the middle east and destabilised the nationalist governments there and installed governments that were happy to sell their people and their finite natural resources for cash collapsing the price of oil to ultimately $10 per barrel. If it had stayed at about $30-35 in 1980 dollars he would have been hailed as a genius.
This past two decades have bought us a uniquely anomalous distortion in the cost of energy that is now working its way out of the western economic system in the same way that a junky comes of drugs - painfully and reluctantly leaving permanent damage behind.
Remember Muldoon for building The Waitaki Power Scheme, the Clutha, Manapouri, the energy developments in Taranaki etc there were a few duds in there but generally the economy would be very much smaller now without think big and we would be much poorer for it.
Muldoon also started the modernisation of telecom and the electrification of the railway system because he saw the need for energy self sufficiency and for a need to be substantially free of imported oil. He unfortunately surrounded himself with minions who were dick heads and half wits and he rushed stuff when he should have been more strategic about how he went about it. Basically his maistake was to mistake peak oil america for the global peak - ultimately he wasn't wrong he just was thirty years ahead of his time.
If you need some proof try
http://howdaft.blogspot.co.nz/2011/06/sad-state-of-new-zealand-economy.html
You will see that all of the countries that own us are the one party states, the oil rich and the economic colonisers like Germany
all of the open border free marketers are debt ridden basket cases - explain that fred and Para
Paulinem and Darkhorse - I think you will find the one with rosy tinted glasses on is you. I also lived through your supposed halcyon days. You are talking about symptoms as if they were the cause. The reason NZ went broke - and it did, was Muldoons stupidity to think he alone had the messianic ability to wield the Keynsian levers of power. Free up money before an election to make everyone feel good and bugger the inflation that followed. The really big reforms that people overlook were the restrictions on government power Douglas and Richardson implemented. Clarkula would have loved to have the power Muldoon had.
And Muldoons think big was good? Just shows how short Greens memories are. The Clyde dam was a disaster from the begining. Motonui was an absolute waste. He buggered up the use of Maui oil & gas that could have seen New Zealand far better off. Having said that the Maui gas was probably the one thing that saved Muldoons bacon for as long as he lasted.
The reason the world and New Zealand in particular is in its current sad state is because of politicians tax and spend to buy power. The FDR priming the pumps in the 30's was the reason the depression lasted into the early 40's in the US. The reason families were able to live better in your 'good old days' was that Government actually took far less of the productive sector to support government tax and spend for power. There was far less welfarism and government interventionism. We have only had two short periods of reform over the past 30 years with ongoing increases in tax and spending for increased government power. Clark and Cullen were the ultimate in providing welfare for wealthy families to buy power. The Gnats have doen nothing to fix this rort. No wonder the country is financially strapped - and getting worse.
We've just come through the best economic times in a generation but have you not stopped to ask why so soon after we are stuffed? And forget the banks. They are symptoms - look for the causes and where the incentives lay.
Paulinem - get a grip. Telecom wasn't broke before being sold? A government make work scheme that was not responsive in any way to what its customers needed? 6 weeks to get a phone connection? A business that needed huge investment. Come out and live in the real world - it's not that scary.
Paranormal
Paranormal unlike you I live in the real world ...problems back in Telecom day public ownership had a lot to do with getting to grip with new technology and "acceptable austerity" of the days ( you couldn't import easily especially on products considered to be frivolous ) Telecom demise nothing to do with bad management etc.
Give us a break all was rosy re neoliberalism change in economics ...that entirely depends on where you stand economically ..its you that chooses to live in a selfish lala world with your desire to sell our assets and damn the consequences and victims it causes .
Paranoral your view re bad beneficiary etc what else can you say but yawn yawn yawn ...your mates are the biggest suckers of the tax money re Keys and his over the top expenses for bodyguards ..English double dipping and changing the rules to assure he can continue double dipping when he was caught out ...need I go back to the captain of industries like Bob Jones Micheal Fay etc etc ( and I have no doubt Roger Douglas also ) ripped the taxpayer of for millions and millions in 1984...
AS the saying goes before you point the finger at others ripping of the taxpayers look at your own back yard !!!
Para states ...
The reason the world and New Zealand in particular is in its current sad state is because of politicians tax and spend to buy power. The FDR priming the pumps in the 30's was the reason the depression lasted into the early 40's in the US. The reason families were able to live better in your 'good old days' was that Government actually took far less of the productive sector to support government tax and spend for power
but the politicians are the ones you are championing - the past thruity years have been largely run along the free market lines you espouse
yet we a re a worse basket case now than we were when it started and don't say all of the so called private enterpisers that bought our assest from the douglas fgoct didn;t get huge subnsidies
air NZ has cost the shareholders and taxpayers some $200m per year in capital losses since privatised
Telecom has recived similar "subsidies" from the shareholder - each have lost a bundle - far more than they would have cost if left in public ownership - and then there is NZ rail - then there is the hidden subsidy ove monopolistic renats. It is cheaper to use a cell phone in afghanistan than it is here
OMG Paulinem. "acceptable austerity". What is that? Oh you mean the government picking winners and deciding who was going to earn a fortune selling overpriced products because the government decided who could import what. We were a basket case and a laughing stock of the world. Perfectly good TV's and cars had to be broken down after they came off the production line so they could be rebuilt again in your socialist nirvana.
You have also allowed your own prejudices to blind you to what I was saying. I never said "bad beneficiaries". I merely pointed out that the incentives created by our welfare system are incentivising unsustainable growth in welfarism. I agree with the creator of our welfare system that we need a safety net. Not the lifestyle it has become. Apirana Ngata was so right with his concerns that welfare would be the ruination of our people. And you need to get your head out of the sand - I have seen the damage it does to my own family. You obviously live some priviliged lifestyle far removed from the realities of the harm welfarism is doing to our people.
I have repeatedly pointed out that the reason we need to sell our assets is because we are spending too much. Who are the real victims here?
Key and Blenglish are no mates of mine - as far as I'm concered they're in the same league as the rest of your socialist mates. Maybe just a less red version but still as bad taxing and spending to buy power.
Also suggest you might like to get a real understanding of econmomics, how the country works, and who pays the majority of our net tax before continuing with your mindless repeating of propaganda around who is really paying the most net taxes. Look at you repeating the crap about bodyguards - that your beloved Hulun always had. (The difference is Key treats them like real people but thats a side issue). And yes all politicians are rorting the system for their own benefit, including your vaunted Greens, Liabour, and Winston First.
But a lot of this is minor petty stuff when compared to the vast waste that tax and spend to buy power creates.
Paranormal
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